Hello friends

Hello friends,

We are considering to change behaviour of move up/down command using ctrl+arrows for lists with hierarchy. The new approach is available on our beta site, https://beta.checkvist.com. Could you please try it out and tell us what you think?

Thanks!
https://beta.checkvist.com

Comments

  1. Sterling Udell25 February 2017 at 06:26

    Personally, I prefer the existing UI; it seems more intuitive that ctrl+up/down is for moving "laterally", and should keep list items at their existing level of the hierarchy.

    It may depend on how users' lists are organized, though.

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  2. Leslie P25 February 2017 at 06:43

    Love it! Perfect! Exactly the way I think move up/down should work!

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  3. Ralf Hauber25 February 2017 at 07:24

    Although I like the new path through lists ("fine tuning / node iterating / crawling style"), I definitely don't want to loose the very fast way to rearrange lists. For that, staying at the same level is crucial and very much in align with my thinking in levels. (For larger lists, where the siblings are not even on screen, it will make a huge difference.)

    The only thing I am missing in the current UI is a quick way to place an item as the first child of the following item. Cut and paste work ok, as Kirill Maximov suggested. A reverse operation would be nice, but again Shift+Tab Ctrl+Up is ok.

    Back to the suggested change: What would work for me is a modifier to switch temporarily from jump-mode (same level) to crawl-mode (node by node), e. g. by pressing Ctrl twice, i. e. Ctrl Ctrl+Up/Down. Crawl-mode ends when Ctrl is released. (Other editors use such double-keystrokes as modifiers, e. g. IntelliJ.)

    Final note: Ctrl+Up and Ctrl+Down should work exactly in the opposite way, which they currently don't at the end of a nested sublist.

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  4. Crispin Bennett25 February 2017 at 13:09

    I find this an improvement as I've often been tripped up by the existing behaviour, which I've never quite got used to (it's permanently unexpected for me) Even when I do want a subtask I'm moving to remain a subtask at its destination, it will only be by complete chance if it's at the same level (except with extremely regular lists).

    I agree with Ralf Hauber that ideally both behaviours would be available. I'd prefer the new behaviour to be the default (it's far more intuitive), with the old behaviour a modified 'acceleration' for fast rearrangement. I don't have strong feelings about the particular shortcut to be used, other than that whichever is non-standard should be a modification of the default one.

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  5. Xavier B25 February 2017 at 19:03

    I think that new default makes more sense, it's more intuitive. I remember being surprised at the current (non beta) behaviour when I used it at first. This said, you should/could? keep the old way if Ctrl+Shift+Up/Down is used.

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  6. Jim McGuire25 February 2017 at 20:38

    Kirill Maximov, I am so used to the current behavior, it's hard to see what the great benefit of the change is. What is prompting the consideration of making this change? If we knew the rationale, it may help us to make an informed opinion.

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  7. Kirill Maximov (KIR)26 February 2017 at 10:54

    Thank you all for the comments and suggestions! Looks like a change is rather controversial, but we definitely think that there is a value in the new behavior. We'd like to keep it this way for some time on the beta site and try to collect some more feedback (probably also via e-mail).

    Also, at the moment, we've added shortcuts
    Ctrl+Alt+Up/Down with the old re-ordering behavior (Cmd+Alt+Up/Down works on Mac as well). Please let us know if this shortcut does not work for your environment.

    Jim McGuire The old behaviour was a bit inconsistent in some scenarios and did not allow to move an item through all the list up/down continuously, due to level limitation. Also, there were 2 use cases which were not well addressed (without using cut/paste):

    - making an item a first child of the next coming parent item
    - reverse operation

    Ralf Hauber Ctrl Ctrl+Up is kind of tricky, both to implement and to explain. IntelliJ&family are great IDEs, and "Shift Shift" "Search everywhere" shortcut is marvelous, but it is so great because it is very simple. Your suggestion is not that simple, at least I feel so. So now we just added "Alt" modifier to the Ctrl+Up/Down shortcut - let's see how it will work.

    Thanks again!

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  8. Crispin Bennett26 February 2017 at 13:03

    FWIW, after a day of use the change is very clearly an improvement from my perspective. It's more efficient for me because previously I always had to combine movement with various in/outdents.

    As Sterling Udell suggested, I imagine this is pretty dependent on each list's particular structure.

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  9. Sterling Udell26 February 2017 at 13:09

    Yeah, my lists tend to be highly structured, with indenting denoting related groups of tasks. I move tasks (and groups) around relative to each other, but rarely change the level of an existing task.

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  10. Jim McGuire26 February 2017 at 14:13

    Kirill Maximov thanks for your clear explanation. If the old behavior can be maintained with the new key combination, we have everything to gain by this. It's likely that with some experience, I will come to prefer the new behavior.

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  11. Kirill Maximov (KIR)27 February 2017 at 03:11

    Sterling Udell Would the old behaviour preserved with the new shortcut work for you?

    ReplyDelete
  12. Ralf Hauber27 February 2017 at 14:19

    Works for me. (Though I would prefer it the other way round: go fast with two key = Strg+Up/Down, and use a third one (Alt) when fine tuning. But that's probably only a matter of getting used to.)

    ReplyDelete
  13. Sterling Udell28 February 2017 at 09:13

    Kirill Maximov to be honest, I don't move items around that often, so I probably wouldn't remember the extended shortcut when I came to use it.

    Would you consider a settings toggle that would let the user select which behavior they want? This strikes me as something where users will almost always want whichever behavior suits their workflow and list structure, and not need to change behaviors often.

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  14. Kirill Maximov (KIR)1 March 2017 at 01:38

    Sterling Udell We would not want to add a setting for this, rather, we'd implement keyboard shortcut customization one day: https://checkvist.uservoice.com/admin/forums/2121-general/suggestions/158283-custom-keyboard-shortcuts-ability-to-control-vim-

    I thought that the new behaviour allows to arrange items with the structure of arbitrary complexity. Do you have cases when the new behaviour does not allow to do what you need? Or it is a matter of habit?

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  15. Xavier B1 March 2017 at 02:38

    Public link:
    https://checkvist.uservoice.com/forums/2121-general/suggestions/158283-custom-keyboard-shortcuts-ability-to-control-vim

    ReplyDelete
  16. Kirill Maximov (KIR)1 March 2017 at 02:41

    Xavier B thanks for the correction!

    ReplyDelete
  17. Sterling Udell1 March 2017 at 07:38

    Kirill Maximov it's not so much that I couldn't do what I need to with the new behavior, more that it works better for some sorts of lists/workflows and worse for others.

    If you're a user with the list style that it works for, it's an improvement, but that's not everyone. Those of us for whom it works less well, it'll work less well all the time - hence my suggestion for a setting that we can just do once, rather than an additional key combination to remember.

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  18. Crispin Bennett1 March 2017 at 15:10

    Sterling Udell It's good practice to resist the temptation to throw in too many settings.

    Take this with a pinch of salt, as I'm slightly on the other side of this from you as I prefer the new behaviour (and think it's much more intuitive for newcomers). And I do understand that a change in what you already are used to can be an irritant.

    But a genuine question: is it really that hard to remember 1 new keyboard combo? I don't have a prodigious memory by any means, but I work with software tools that use a lot of keyboard shortcuts, and find I know a new one permanently after using it once or twice on 3 consecutive days.

    I find this to be just enough effort that I don't bother with actions that I only do now and then (I just look up the menu etc), but with any actions I perform regularly, I just use the keyboard shortcut for a few days and it's done.

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  19. Kirill Maximov (KIR)3 March 2017 at 03:24

    Crispin Bennett Sterling Udell At the moment we still think that the new crawl behaviour is better than the old one. Maybe, it could be improved somehow, but it not quite clear in which direction. According to the feedback (both in this thread and in some of our private discussions), the new behaviour wins.

    But we'll try to collect more opinions before rolling this out to production.

    ReplyDelete

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